Curse

cataphract · Dec 08, 2008, 09:35 AM // 09:35

[Enervating Charge][Shock Arrow][Lightning Orb][GoLE][Thunderclap][Blinding Flash][Pain Inverter][Air Attunement]

This is basically what my ele runs when playing Air in HM. Had to add Shock Arrow because I get carried away Orbing stuff and/or something removes my Attunement. Vekk as an Earth ele liked KD'ing stuff with Stoning.

Enon · Dec 08, 2008, 03:29 PM // 15:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

This is something I'm working on right now ([build][Assassin's Promise][Eruption][Churning Earth][Finish Him][GOLE][Ward Against Melee][Ebon Battle Standard of Honor][Mindbender][/build] is the current test build.)

That's actually an extremely good build.

[E/A Earth AP;OgdTkYW6T6UgpZBaX0mEZAWIVAA]
I used this build to do most missions in HM and some vanquishing. [[Ward Against Melee] can be swapped for [[Ebon Battle Standard of Courage] or any other skill you fancy.

I just find the AoE blind combined with the knock down from [[Churning Earth], all mobs move faster than normal in HM, very useful. A downside is the casting times, but you can easily surpass them by using [[Mindbender], which you already did anyway.

The rest is pretty much self explaining.

Omega Precept · Dec 10, 2008, 12:59 AM // 00:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pocketmancer

Not true. Elementalists are considered one of the more desired classes in PvE Normal Mode simply for their raw power. Assassins are oneshot-one-target wonders from the frontline while Necromancers and Mesmers can only deal decent amounts of damage depending on the situation at hand. Elementalists require very little for dealing direct damage and often at times, require nothing but energy. Evidence of this raw power in normal mode? 3x Searing Flames Elementalists can nearly steamroll through 90% of Normal PvE gameplay in a quick and efficient fashion.

However, 3x Searing Flames in Hard Mode is nowhere close to being as effective which is why people began the myth of Elementalists "sucking" along the damage line and that's simply because of elemental damage being affected by armour. This is because of a rather big oversight on ANet's part since Elementalists went from the nuker class to the utility class while Necromancers went from utility class to "nuker" class (Discordway being the case). It's a bit heart aching, really.

However, if you're to ask me, I'd say that nuking or direct damage was never the only strong point an Elementalist has. What that strong point is, is probably something you guys should look into for yourselves.

Word~

In nm Ele's consistently pack the most power punch. In Hardmode as a utility I have often times turned my ele in to a wardmaster and it has always gone over well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyra Fade

saying eles are inadequate for HM is admitting you lack the skill and creativity to make use of GW's most provocatively dressed class.

~Double Word!

The Meth · Dec 10, 2008, 01:29 AM // 01:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pocketmancer

This is because of a rather big oversight on ANet's part since Elementalists went from the nuker class to the utility class while Necromancers went from utility class to "nuker" class (Discordway being the case). It's a bit heart aching, really.

Wait, discord is considered a nuke now? Did someone redefine nuke from large amount of AoE damage to average amount of single target damage? Nothing necros can do should be considered nuking, except possibly Mark of Pain in a physical heavy group.

MegaVolti · Dec 10, 2008, 07:05 AM // 07:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omega Precept

Word~

In nm Ele's consistently pack the most power punch. In Hardmode as a utility I have often times turned my ele in to a wardmaster and it has always gone over well.

No. Nonono. Nonononononono. NO!
A 120 damage spell might look good on paper but it usually has a casting time and a cooldown. On average, you can rarely ever cast more then a spell every 3 seconds. Which cuts down the nice looking 120 damage into 40 DPS which is average at best.

Elementalists produce nice shiny numbers in NM, yes. But they lack in DPS, both in HM and in NM. The fact that they are sought in NM as damage dealers actually doesn't speak for GW players. Obviously, the majority is fooled by shiny numbers and DD stereotypes and not able to think about DPS themselves.

Avarre · Dec 10, 2008, 07:58 AM // 07:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omega Precept

Word~

In nm Ele's consistently pack the most power punch. In Hardmode as a utility I have often times turned my ele in to a wardmaster and it has always gone over well.

Why would you need a full character for wards, when you can stick them in utility skill slots of other characters? Is there something special I can't think of?

daze · Dec 10, 2008, 08:03 AM // 08:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

Wait, discord is considered a nuke now? Did someone redefine nuke from large amount of AoE damage to average amount of single target damage? Nothing necros can do should be considered nuking, except possibly Mark of Pain in a physical heavy group.

Discordway can definitely be classified as a massive spike build.

But Necros have the potential to be better nukers than eles.

[spiteful spirit] being the skill of choice
[defile enchantments][desecrate enchantments] adding to the AoE hurt
[mark of pain] when you use minions for more Area nukage
[meekness][shadow of fear][plague sending][reckless haste][weaken armor] qualifies as Nuke even when its AoE utility.
And thats just the curses line. Death magic has a few nuking capabilities with corpse explosion[putrid explosion], minion explosion[death nova], [putrid flesh], and enemy explosion[putrid bile]

So to say that necros are not really nukers is inaccurate because necros can nuke with the best eles.

Moloch Vein · Dec 10, 2008, 08:14 AM // 08:14

Reactive hexing isn't the same as proactive nukes. Health degeneration isn't the same as nukes.

daze · Dec 10, 2008, 08:17 AM // 08:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Reactive hexing isn't the same as proactive nukes. Health degeneration isn't the same as nukes.

which is why i didnt mention [suffering]

I always thought that Massive AoE damage, whether it be reactive or proactive was considered nuking. But maybe broken to reactive nuking, and proactive nuking. Kinda like Hydrogen Bomb and Atomic Bomb. One splits the atom and the other combines the atom. Both are reactive however.

This is the way i picture it if im to compare it to actual nuclear arsenal.

Elemental would be like an atom bomb launched, lobbed, hurled, or dropped directly on a target to explode on impact.

Necromancer would be like an atom bomb with a timed, pressure, temperature, or other conditional detonator which explodes once the condition is met.

Would i not be accurate in my assumptions?

Avarre · Dec 10, 2008, 01:30 PM // 13:30

Not this 'the word means whatever fits my viewpoint' semantic stuff again.

MegaVolti · Dec 10, 2008, 01:38 PM // 13:38

[Rising Bile][Putrid Bile][Icy Veins][Putrid Explosion]

I think Necromancers do qualify as nukers. Even better then Elementalists (at least in HM).

The Meth · Dec 10, 2008, 01:43 PM // 13:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by daze

which is why i didnt mention [suffering]

I always thought that Massive AoE damage, whether it be reactive or proactive was considered nuking. But maybe broken to reactive nuking, and proactive nuking. Kinda like Hydrogen Bomb and Atomic Bomb. One splits the atom and the other combines the atom. Both are reactive however.

This is the way i picture it if im to compare it to actual nuclear arsenal.

Elemental would be like an atom bomb launched, lobbed, hurled, or dropped directly on a target to explode on impact.

Necromancer would be like an atom bomb with a timed, pressure, temperature, or other conditional detonator which explodes once the condition is met.

Would i not be accurate in my assumptions?

I think it would be more accurate to say necromancers are the broken atomic bomb that doesn't detonate but instead just leaks radiation that might cause cancer 20 years from now if you stand in glowing water for a week.

I take it back though, Icy Veins is a pretty nice skill. Everything else though is pretty much conditional or just a middle-high damage over time, not a nuke.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Not this 'the word means whatever fits my viewpoint' semantic stuff again.

Gotta increase post count somehow, surely you weren't expecting it to be through intelligent discussion of builds and strategies, right?

daze · Dec 10, 2008, 09:41 PM // 21:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by MegaVolti

[Rising Bile][Putrid Bile][Icy Veins][Putrid Explosion]

I think Necromancers do qualify as nukers. Even better then Elementalists (at least in HM).

Thats what i was getting at. I am an ele fan, but for hard mode, Necros do a much better job of AoE pain. Call it what you will "nuking" or "lollipops" Especailly in the death magic line with all the explosion spells being armor ignoring. If only [energy blast] was AoE then at least eles might be able to get a big toe back in the door of HM damage dealers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Not this 'the word means whatever fits my viewpoint' semantic stuff again.

Its post like this that turn a nice civil discussion into a flame fest. Up until 3 posts ago, this thread was a flame free zone. And relatively on topic too. Have to say i didnt expect a comment like that from black text.

Pocketmancer · Dec 10, 2008, 10:55 PM // 22:55

My mistake at the miswording of "nuke" when I should have said "spike." Generated an unnecessary discussion on Necromancers nuking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MegaVolti

Elementalists produce nice shiny numbers in NM, yes. But they lack in DPS, both in HM and in NM. The fact that they are sought in NM as damage dealers actually doesn't speak for GW players. Obviously, the majority is fooled by shiny numbers and DD stereotypes and not able to think about DPS themselves.

High damage spread is more efficient at clearing through 90% of Normal Mode than high damage per second. The only times one should focus on higher damage per second is against specific boss fights in PvE Normal Mode. However, there are better ways to deal against certain bosses than with higher damage per second.

Of course, I won't deny that dealing a bazillion damage a second saved my sorry assassin butt from Kuunavang in Unwaking Waters the first time I played it.

cataphract · Dec 11, 2008, 08:26 AM // 08:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by daze

Elemental would be like an atom bomb launched, lobbed, hurled, or dropped directly on a target to explode on impact.

Necromancer would be like an atom bomb with a timed, pressure, temperature, or other conditional detonator which explodes once the condition is met.

Would i not be accurate in my assumptions?

You are correct.

Both approaches have their (dis)advantages. It's the synergy what makes them even stronger.

I've been doing a lot of Morostav Trail vanquishes lately. Two to four people (3 n, 1 me), Tahlkora and 3 necro heroes. Damage output is awesome, spiking ability great. Dumping 2 necro heroes and taking 2 eles has never hurt our team and we continued to get ~40 minute runs. Instead of hexing a balled up group of mobs and wanding them until they kill themselves, eles have nuked the hell out of them while minions kept them in place.

While necros shine in HM, eles shine a bit less.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MegaVolti

[Rising Bile][Putrid Bile][Icy Veins][Putrid Explosion]

I think Necromancers do qualify as nukers. Even better then Elementalists (at least in HM).

Yes, necros are the kings of HM due to their armor-ignoring damage. But that doesn't mean eles suck in HM. They're just a bit gimped in comparison to necros. Eles still have the ability to do massive amounts of AoE damage, spike a single target or play utility.

Let's not turn this thread into a "necro vs ele" argument. Chances are, every team you join or make will have a necro and an ele member. I for one love my necro heroes with their wall of minions and SS on the mobs while I was raining down Meteor Showers and SH on them.

Avarre · Dec 11, 2008, 08:53 AM // 08:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by daze

Its post like this that turn a nice civil discussion into a flame fest. Up until 3 posts ago, this thread was a flame free zone. And relatively on topic too. Have to say i didnt expect a comment like that from black text.

You're not being flamed, you're being disagreed with, in a post with no uncivility. If you feel that strongly about being able to make questionably relevant real-life analogies defending miss-chance hexes as 'nukes', you're welcome to send an appeal.

Nuking as a term, afaik, has always been used for direct damage - which isn't a comment on whether it's effective, just the definition. Let's stick to the actual build discussion, and away from arguing over what we call it, hmm?

fenix · Dec 11, 2008, 09:12 AM // 09:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by daze

Discordway can definitely be classified as a massive spike build.

But Necros have the potential to be better nukers than eles.

[spiteful spirit] being the skill of choice
[defile enchantments][desecrate enchantments] adding to the AoE hurt
[mark of pain] when you use minions for more Area nukage
[meekness][shadow of fear][plague sending][reckless haste][weaken armor] qualifies as Nuke even when its AoE utility.
And thats just the curses line. Death magic has a few nuking capabilities with corpse explosion[putrid explosion], minion explosion[death nova], [putrid flesh], and enemy explosion[putrid bile]

So to say that necros are not really nukers is inaccurate because necros can nuke with the best eles.

You can't just change what a word means in the context of Guild Wars, nuking has always been about direct AoE spell damage (read as; Elementalist), that is all. It doesn't include ANY of the spells you wrote, because they are mostly shutdown with some dmg spells, and have nothing to do with what nuking has been defined as over the last 3.5 years.

daze · Dec 11, 2008, 09:37 AM // 09:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

You can't just change what a word means in the context of Guild Wars, nuking has always been about direct AoE spell damage (read as; Elementalist), that is all. It doesn't include ANY of the spells you wrote, because they are mostly shutdown with some dmg spells, and have nothing to do with what nuking has been defined as over the last 3.5 years.

Ok fair enough. I wasn't trying to argue the term, just trying to share point. Like i said a few posts ago. You can call it "nuking" or "lollipops" whatever doesnt matter, Necros and eles switch rolls when it comes to HM. eles take on the utility and Necros pump out the Damage

MegaVolti · Dec 11, 2008, 06:11 PM // 18:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by cataphract

Yes, necros are the kings of HM due to their armor-ignoring damage. But that doesn't mean eles suck in HM. They're just a bit gimped in comparison to necros. Eles still have the ability to do massive amounts of AoE damage, spike a single target or play utility.

No. Elementalists have the ability to do medium amounts of AoE damage, spike a single target or play utility. Most importantly: They have the ability to add awesome utility to the party while still dealing medium amounts of damage (earth magic), which is a very good combination.
They never have the ability to do massive amounts of damage, not even in NM and especially not in HM due to the effect of armor.

Pocketmancer · Dec 11, 2008, 06:28 PM // 18:28

The only other class I can say that pumps out more damage (in Normal Mode) than an Elementalist is an Assassin, but that's only to one target. I don't think that alone suggests Elementalists only deal medium damage. 100 spread damage to 60 armour class foes (plus Burning) every two seconds is not something all other classes can do unconditionally (or conditionally if they wanted).

But like daze and I said earlier, Necromancers and Elementalists swap roles when playing in Hard Mode. Success in Hard Mode is different than success in Normal Mode. Indicated by what others have said and from my own experience vanquishing in Hard Mode, utility and versatility goes a long way on team setups. The Necromancer has the upperhand in this case as it maintains heavy spiking potential while being able to provide utility.